#EP 153 - Exclusive Breastfeeding, Elimination Communication and Fathers in Postpartum with Surabhi

Everywhere you look, someone has advice on feeding your baby. But what does it actually take to exclusively breastfeed while running a business, handling endless unsolicited opinions, and still trusting yourself?

In this conversation, Surabhi shares her Postpartum journey after taking Birth Agni's long-form breastfeeding program. We talk about exclusive breastfeeding, elimination communication, navigating Indian family advice with partner support, why breastfeeding education changes everything, and why fathers need communities where they can learn to be truly involved parents. 

Tune in now !

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is something that I tell everyone. If you want to go see someone's child, if that child is not your sibling's child, please ask yourself if you want to, if it is needed, that and if the mother is actually okay with it, genuinely ask, are you sure you're okay with me coming? If not, please tell me I can meet the baby some other time. That's it. And it is so helpful for the mother. And when people go meet mothers, please take something for the mother. Don't have to take anything for the baby. Baby already has enough. Way more than needed. So please do something for the mother.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Welcome to the Birth Agree Podcast. The fire that births us and transforms us. This is a space where women reclaim birth on their own terms. Where deep ancient knowing meets primal courage. We talk birth, womanhood, breastfeeding, parenting, and the quiet power of choosing differently. Choosing of our own. Come as you are, leave more rooted. I'm Divya Kapoor, a childbirth educator, lactation counsellor, 20 traditional midwife, and doula, disintegrating the politics of birth. One story at a time.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Today we have in the Bird Agni recording studio my son, little Tavas. Tavas, you want to say something? Tavas is curious. Tavas is sleepy. And he might go here and there in between. And that's the real postpartum. I'm standing right now to record this intro. And he is trying to rub his eyes because he's sleepy. And that's what postpartum is. It's not the soft, filtered reel you imagined. It's the messy, emotional, and full of surprises that most mums are never prepared for. So mums step into a postpartum period dreaming of snuggles, cuddles, smiley baby photos. I did the first time around. And that magical bond that exists. I dreamt of going swimming with my daughter already in pregnancy. Yes, sir. So you agree. What no one really prepares you for is the breastfeeding challenge. The sudden wave of postpartum anxiety and the quiet, aching need for real support. In this episode with Doula and Perinatal yoga instructor, Surabi, founder, Kupigudu, we talk about her journey of exclusively breastfeeding her daughter for a full year. And she's still ongoing. Plus the raw, honest side of postpartum. And the kind of support that actually makes the difference. Why should you listen to this episode? Yes, sir. So why should we listen to this episode? Because only 43% of babies in India are exclusively breastfed for six months. And a big reason is the lack of education and guidance around breastfeeding. Many women who do want to breastfeed end up stopping early because of issues that could have been prevented with simple, clear knowledge in pregnancy. In fact, 98% of mums in my breastfeeding programs go on to breastfeed exclusively when they get the right information and hand holding that I provide in all my programs.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

In her own words, it's not easy, but not without rewards too. In this episode, we speak about it in a real way so it serves and does not distract you about what to expect of postpartum.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Let's talk about how education can reshape your entire breastfeeding journey and why what you learn before your baby arrives matters more than you think. Let's begin. Hi Survey, welcome to the show yet again. Hey Divya, thank you so much for hanging again. Yeah, so last time uh we spoke all about your birth story, right from preparation, which was episode one, to birth story, like how did the labor, birth, everything went. But now in this episode, we are going to go deeper into postpartum. You have exclusively breastfed Piho for the last one year, and we celebrated that as well. And you've done a lot of other things in postpartum as well, and there has been a lot of experiences also as a yoga teacher that you've been interacting with women and realizing the hurdles women face in postpartum. So, if I ask you, what are one of the major things that you think from your experience that women face in uh postpartum regarding breastfeeding that holds them back from making the right decision about breastfeeding?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

So, what happens is you know how vulnerable the postpartum phase is, right? Like you question everything, even if you're doing things right, you already are questioning it. But the people around you are also not really helpful because they don't say that you've got this, like you know, you can do this, your body has been preparing for it. We all know that by 20 weeks of pregnancy itself, our breasts are ready to nurture the baby, but we don't believe that 20 weeks after that, also when the baby is born, we can feed the baby soon after the birth. We don't believe in the dance of the hormones and how rhythmic everything is and how everything is beautifully set naturally. So I think it's that trust that is not built around it, which causes a lot of confusion in a mother who's already confused and overwhelmed at that point of time. And like like we've talked about, the education aspect is really, really important. But it's not just the mother who needs to be educated, it's the people around her who needs to be educated about this as well. I think our parents' generation, unfortunately, were very sold on formula feeds, and they have normalized that so much that now, with any doubt, any cry that a baby has, the first thing that even I heard was, I think the milk is not sufficient. So I think top it up, top it up, top it up. And multiple wakings in the night, top it up. I think the milk is not sufficient. That's why the baby is waking up. Nobody talks about how breastfeeding is not just about the food and the nourishment aspect of it. There is bonding, you know, there's comfort, there is soothing that the baby also seeks through the breast of the mother. And uh, I think that knowledge is like very, very less around us. So that becomes the major hurdle in getting started with breastfeeding and also continuing with it over a period of time because you need that support no matter how long you've breastfed your baby for, even if you're doing it for the second or third time, it can be overwhelming at every stage because the first time you feed the baby is not the same as how you do it at one year mark or six months mark or anything. Everything changes, the baby behaves differently over a period of time, and you need that support. You know, they're different when they're when they start to crawl, they're different when they start to teeth, when they're learning to walk, they're very, very different, and everything affects the mother, and you need a space to vent, that's also there. Like, you know, you need another mother who actually understands this. And sometimes I feel like you also need to find a mother who's going through a very similar journey as yours, otherwise, it's very hard for someone else to understand what you're going through because the choices that you make, uh, like with us, for example, exclusively breastfeeding was pretty much a non-negotiable until like you know, push came to shower. And like, if I took a step back, I think I've also had multiple conversations with you in between, right? Where I said I messaged you the previous night and I said, like, no, I'm not doing this anymore because this is just really painful. She started biting, uh, and it was the peak teething phase of hers. And I needed you to say that, uh, okay, let's look into it. I wanted somebody to acknowledge that yes, I understand that you're going through this pain and discomfort. Sleep on it, let's decide tomorrow. Let's start working on it. I needed to hear this. So you said that, and Tarshan said that, which gave me confidence I'm not doing anything wrong. You know, if I want a way out of this, I have a way out of this, and I have the support for that also because it was very overwhelming. I've sat through nights crying, and that is what is lacking. Because when somebody doesn't go through the whole process of it, they cannot comprehend what you're talking about. Because all they want to listen to is, ah, you wanted to breastfeed, you said you were enjoying, and now you're complaining about it. It's like, yes, it's it's double-edged sport, like there are good days, there are bad days as well. So I think what I have seen is mostly that that lack of support in general from everyone to understand what the mother is going through, is what is the major hurdle, and the start of it, you know, how it begins is also extremely important, I feel. Uh, I think there's a lot of misconception around going through a C-section and not being able to breastfeed. And honestly, this is like the most amazing news that I have gotten very recently from a student of mine who who was a part of the uh breastfeeding session that you did with us recently, right? Her husband called me up after the birth and he said, uh, I mean, some of the things went wrong, and she gave birth through a C-section. And hospital, as usual, recommended formula feeding because you know they said that she's not able to sit, uh, she won't produce milk for another two, three days because she went through a C-section. So let's give formula and all of that. And he put his foot down because he wasn't in a place to fight for it. He put his foot down and he said, I will handle holding the baby, I will figure out it, figure it all out, give her a chance. If it doesn't work, we will do it. We will give her formula. Obviously, the baby is hungry and the mother is not able to produce the milk, and we will give formula, but let us try. And they did try, and she did breastfeed her baby from the get-go, and he was so happy, and there were a lot of things going on, but he made sure that he said that the session was an eye-opener for him to understand that that is possible, and all you need to do is try, and that openness of if it doesn't work out, there is another way that you can choose as well. I think this is very important. Like, I think we tend to stick to a root, and when it doesn't work, we don't know what to do with it. So it's on either extremes for us. Either do it this way or don't do it at all. So that middle ground is also something that I think people around the mother needs to understand because that phase itself is so sensitive, right? So you can't fight all the battles as a mother. You choose to pick your battles, and there needs to be someone around you who will fight some of these for you as well.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

So no, certainly. I mean, so many things from what you've said. Um, one partner support and knowledge of the partner because he's going to be the one fighting for you. Second from the story that came out was this session was a first basic session. The only thing I said to everybody was gave them a scenario that this is going to happen. This is exactly what they're going to say, and this is what I'm going to do. I gave them one, two, three. That is what you do. In fact, how do you breastfeed with Cesarean? Is not a part of that session, it's a part of subsequent sessions.

unknown 12:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Yeah. Yeah. But he was still just that information that he could do it, he could ask for it from someone who is an expert telling him to do it. I mean, we are parents are like children, right? Like all of us become children, but we we are being mentored. So it's on the mentor to tell you that it's okay if it doesn't work out, but you can try. And also to give that space. And I've been mindful of saying that even if you give formula one night because you were so pressurized, you can pick yourself up and do it the next feed. I mean, don't have to tell yourself or I couldn't get this started on exclusive breastfeeding. Exactly. I mean, every feed through your entire journey of breastfeeding has to be breastfeeding for it to be exclusive. The day you buy it, the day it becomes exclusive. So I mean, that's sort of we'll have to hold women as human beings in this than just you know, you know, reaching a goal. That's there, that's that's part of the mission, but they will never be able to reach a goal unless and until they first hold themselves with grace and not guilt because that's an angel around there, all over the place. So absolutely love that. And education is hands down very, very important. And having someone like Surubi, having people around you who um hold your hand. I mean, you know, in this journey when when you take mentorship of different success, have someone next to you. That's so so important. So uh, so many things from that conversation, Surubi. And um so along with breastfeeding, you also did what is called elimination communication. And although as a culture, we've always practiced that, we didn't have diapers like a couple of decades ago. Um but we were never given a name. So many of us, including myself with my first one, dismissed my mother. Oh, this is so hard, how will I do it? Um, I did it on and off, but it wasn't something that I was focused on because my mother said it, and of all the things that she'd already, you know, dismissed me on breastfeeding, I wasn't taking that from her. But we know that that is so useful and that's so fantastic. So, before we even go ahead and understand what you did, what is elimination communication for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

So uh, I think at the basic of it, it's just about listening to the cues of your baby to eliminate, just like how there are hunger cues and you know, tiredness cues and sleep cues and everything that we talked to talk about and we learn about. It's the same thing, it's the ejection and the elimination. So I think we've come to a point, unfortunately, where uh whatever we Indians did, like the best practices that we had, it goes out of the country, gets packaged in a nice way, and comes back to us, and we are fascinated with it. I think that's exactly what happened with us with elimination communication. Because uh when Divya Kanal was talking about it, and we were like, ah, okay, you need that tub, all of that, you know. And we were learning all of these techniques and everything, and uh we started doing it from day four. Uh, the first three days we were at the hospital, uh, and we were like, it's uh we're like not going to worry about it. So the we'll settle in, we'll come back home, settle in, and we start. So we started it on day four. We caught her poop on day four uh outside of the diaper, and uh we're trying to hold her in different positions to see what is comfortable. And uh my mother was like happy and like casual about it, and I was like, come, come, see, she pooped outside of the diaper, and like, huh? This is what we did with you. I was like, okay, then why did you not tell me all of this? Like, I thought diaper is like such a norm for you guys that I thought that's what you wanted to do. Like, no, that's not what we want to do, and uh, I think more than the workshop, uh, and more than what we learned from the articles that we read and everything. Uh, my mother helped us go back to the basics of what Indians did to eliminate. So she showed us a lot of new positions to hold her. Uh, because uh at that point, because I was resting, pretty much Dashan took over the whole process of it, uh, you know, looking at the cues and everything. Obviously, I was there. Sometimes she would poop while she was breastfeeding. Those we didn't uh we were okay with it happening in the diaper and everything. We didn't stop the breastfeeding to get her to poop or anything like that. So, same goes with the breastfeeding, right? Like there are hits and misses. And uh, one thing that we learned also to be okay with the mess of it, okay, be okay with the misses, and also be happy about the hits that happen, you know. The more you're able to do it outside of the diaper, the lesser infection chances of infection, the cleaner it is for her, you know. Even she was able to poop comfortably because the position is also very different, she was not lying down and pooping. So she used to be in a nice uh squatted position that Dashan used to hold her, and uh, she used to poop comfortably, and I think when she eliminated, she eliminated completely. So that was there. There was no residual discomfort that she used to used to go through. And there were times when uh when dashan held her, she would just part, you know. That pressure we talked about that, uh we talked about that ILU massage and everything to release the gas and everything, but the deep squatted position, obviously, we know that it is like the nicest way to you know release past gas, also, and that also happened. Sometimes she would just fart and she would just be just like melt into his arms and just come out of it without pooping. I think, in terms of the digestion and the elimination, that process really, really helped. And uh touch would zero rashes because she was clot-diapered, and uh we did uh EC with her, and we didn't have to worry about the poop and everything. By the time she hit the four fourth month mark, and she could be more she was more aware of everything, and she had associated pooping with my husband. So she knew that he would come whenever she had to poop. So she started calling, like when she would be lying down and she would be feeding, and she if she wanted to poop, she would just like get up and uh look at the door, and she would be she would start calling appa, appa, appa. And uh he would come take her, and she would be so happy to see him. She's like, ha, and like you know, she would go. She knew that there was that communication going on between the two of them, and uh uh I got really lucky because he he he was also working from home, so he pretty much took over the whole PC process with her. Um, and uh she was very comfortable with it. Uh, that helped a lot because I know as mothers, like as soon as you give birth, you cannot expect yourself to you know be on your feet all the time, do the diapering, cleaning, feeding, and this as well. So having him and the fact that he took over that part of the job was uh really helpful. So I think uh if someone is trying to do it, if someone is planning to do it, it's better to get it started from someone else so that you can rest for at least those six weeks that we talk about that rest, right? Like you can do that while someone else takes care of this because you're already doing so much, you can hand this over to someone else. So it becomes very important for the father to learn this, is what I felt because you cannot expect the mother to do everything. So yeah, and if someone is trying, please don't be hard on yourself. Take it easy. We did it on day four because I had this kind of support, and he was very keen on it as well. He was very interested in doing it when after we did the session and everything. So that is there. If you do start it a little later, also it's absolutely fine. So there's no harm in it. When you feel like you are recovered and you have the energy for it, do it, and you don't have to do it all with all the cues as well. You can do it for some parts of the day, and rest of the day is you can just let it be and it's okay as well. So I think yeah, but it's one of the best things that we have done for her.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

It takes away the load of uh potty training as it is, because that's a huge problem that women face today. That children are not they are not potty trained well because they are scared of pooping into a ball where it falls down. That's that's one of the things that happens. So they know they tell you, they know that I'm gonna poop, I'm gonna pee, but they would still not want to eliminate themselves onto something else because it they can be scared of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

I think it's the sensation that they're not very comfortable with, and because you do it, I mean you don't have to start it on day four, day one, or anything, even if you start it at the two-month, three-month mark, also for that matter, they usually easily transition into it, and it becomes very easy. And uh, I think I I've seen a lot of people struggling to potty train, like you know, the videos, the songs, and you know all the tricks. It's very hard, it's a lot of work, especially when they understand everything, it's a lot harder, and they're able to communicate very strongly as well. At that point of time, it's a lot harder, actually.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Yeah, because you you as a human being, it's like you know. What this is, why don't you oblige? Why don't you do it? What's so difficult about this? But it is the association. Everything around the baby is about association. Association with the breast, association with you know, going to a particular place to pee and poop, and the learning that this is safe for me. This is absolutely safe. I will be fine doing it. So it just building a habit in the baby. And that takes time and effort, of course. But and um that's how our parents were doing it. Uh so diapers with all the chemicals, with everything that they have on them, and the amount of uh landfill they create, the waste landfill that they create, that's absolutely unhealthy for us because we are reconsuming it uh by other means, by water, by foods. It's a win-win for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

So, with the EC, the other thing that I want to add is uh yeah, don't run it by your pediatrician that you're doing EC because I don't think uh they agree with it because they think that it is okay to drain the baby later. Uh, and for some reason they're concerned with the position and everything. But if you hold the baby in the right position where the spine is supported and the hip is supported, it is absolutely safe. And the other misconception that we heard a lot is uh babies don't have control over their sphincter muscles, which is absolutely not right. Because uh we were also equally surprised when this happened. This happened once with her. Uh, she we were out somewhere and uh she gave all the cues to poop, and uh, so Darshan had done this. Uh so whenever he would take her from the bed or wherever she was to the loo, he would use the words wait, wait, I'm taking you, wait, wait, wait. And we were out. She gave all the signs to poop and he said, wait, we're going home, we'll poop there. So wait. Uh he said, and she waited for 20 minutes to come back home and poop. This was when she was four and a half, five months old, or something. And that is when I realized, okay, whatever we hear these days is absolutely not right. And now that we know that she has this thing to control and everything, now she's transitioning. I don't know what I think she's going through a lot of changes in the body. So pooping in the pot is not her priority anymore. Giving cues to poop is also not her priority anymore because she's always distracted with something that is happening around her. And now she at least one or two poops in a day goes in the diaper. Now we don't even realize that she has pooped. Only when she fusses and she's like, you know, come and clean. And there were days when we just didn't know why she was fussy because we were not used to seeing her poop in the diaper, and we didn't realize that that's another thing that we need to actually check. Because she got into a proper rhythm, like she would wake up, poop, and before going to bed in the night once she would poop. So she had gotten into a proper rhythm. So we assumed that it has got nothing to do with the poop, and we feel like, okay, there's some smell, and like we don't know what is happening, and then we started checking the diaper regularly. Realize, okay, now sometimes she also poops in the diaper, and we actually need to look into it. That's another thing that we need to start doing, and both are possible, both are possible, it will completely depend on what stage of development that they're in and what they want to prioritize, and you have absolutely zero control over it. So, yeah, so both are possible. That's what I wanted to tell.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

It's a very important point, especially for mothers. Like the way social media tells us that you know, aim for this or sleep train your baby, and your baby will sleep. My child has slept for like since my baby was six months old, my baby has slept for the entire night. Now, what these influencers are telling you is just a way, it's a possibility. They they are aware when they are putting that video out, they are aware that that's a possibility that they're throwing at you. It may not be 100% possible, but it's really unethical. I think it can be said that you can try and it's possible. There will be some hits and misses. I think human beings, adults, parents are aware, and it will only help their nervous system feel better than be um, you know, uh sort of swathered in a nervous system uh reload of what they felt when they were children at school, when they were coached and told, oh, that's the glorious end to this. Uh, it took all of us so many years, including our own uh adulthood, to realize that there's no glorious end to anything. It's always a process. So it's not a win, it's not a win-win-win. We are all looking at the win because that's what we were taught, we've been taught as children. So please don't get into that uh cesspool of um the win with breastfeeding, the win with EC, the win with anything uh postpartum so crucial, and I'm so thankful for you to bring it up because yeah, it helps everybody to actually do better. You do better, you do better, you breastfeed better. You do everything better when you give yourself that grace and know that there's a human being in front of you. Now we know we need to look at the human being. What is it? And you know, we we've spoken, Survey you and I, my firstborn Devi was absolutely different from my second one. He is very different, yeah. Um also in terms of their needs, how they function, he is a very uh different baby, and he's he is a far more communicative, I feel, than my elder one, or maybe even if she was communicative, I was so I was so engrossed in what's the right way. Then I looked at her so much. So look at your baby. Actually, the baby will tell you what and how things need to be. And once you start doing that and see the magic like you saw at four months, you start trusting that arm more. And on the West, telling us what to do, uh, there was co-sleeping that they absolutely refuted back in the day. And there are still people who uh question how are you putting the baby on you. I am a big fan of uh jewulas, and I always tell everybody have a jewler, that's the best kind of swaddle. But if you hear the as an expert, if if I've been taught not to tell parents do that, but I tell them, I tell them that you know the research paper says you have to put your baby on a flat back, but we've been using Jula throughout, we've been carrying our babies on our body, and that's not a flat back, that's actually a curved back, so it's absolutely not bad, and you'll have to at some point use your own discretion and go back to your culture and your parents and give them some respect. Of course, there are certain things that they do not know, but there are many that do. For example, the way they hold the baby. So, with my son, he's he's going to be four. Um, but and he is held around the waist. And my father even keeps him standing, but he's holding him because he says that he wants to stand and he does want to stand. I see that he picks his entire body up now. Pick him up, and when we hold his hand, he lifts his entire body up and wants to get up. So my mother would actually take him all the way up. He wants to do that, she says. He wants to do that. I'm holding him, it's okay. His pelvis is his pelvis is actually very malleable at the moment, and I I was worried I was his pelvis is malleable, and it's fine, and they're not doing it too many times in the day for it to hurt him. But it's listening to his cues and giving him what he needs to do. That's very important, and holding him right. If you're holding the spine, like you would know that more than me, Surubi. If you're holding the spine, you are actually holding the entire body and holding the bum in some way, giving the giving the bum as well the support. The baby is not taking the weight of it. So we can we can allow our parents who have done it with their children, have seen other children in their household, at least how how to hold the baby they know better than us.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

And also another thing, Divya. This is something that I've noticed with PU for the last one year. You cannot force a baby to do anything. You can do this with adults, you cannot do this with babies because now she's uh standing with support, walking with support, and everything. But now you cannot force her to stand when she doesn't want to stand. You cannot hold her hands and walk when she doesn't want to do it. If she wants to crawl, she's gonna crawl. If she wants to walk, she will do it when she wants to. So there's no forcing a baby from the get-go, from the beginning, to do anything against their will, wish, and capability. So I think the standing thing, even we we went through that where I was very skeptical because I read a lot of things about deformities and like you know, unstable hips and a lot of weight and everything. If they can't do it, they will not do it. That's a period.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Wow, yeah, yeah. I think that's um that's that's that will be the motto of the episode that babies will not do what they don't want to do, and that's why breastfeeding is different for different women, and their own situation can be harder than someone else in at a particular uh point in time. So say three months is harder for somebody else, but the three months is fine for someone else, but fourth is harder. So don't compare. First thing is don't compare. See your own situation, reach out to somebody who understands you and also you feel comfortable with. It's not necessary that you will align with every expert, and that's what I do with my classes, with the doula program, with everything else that if you come interview me, interview me, I'll be very happy to be interviewed because I also want alignment. And if that doesn't seem to work out for you, if you don't feel aligned with me, let's not work together because probably someone else will serve you better. So, whenever you take service from a pediatrician, from a doctor, don't think they know everything, they don't know anything about your baby.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

These are normal biological processes, it's not a problem that you're going to them with. You're going with a question, a query. Maybe everything is okay at your end. Also, like you said, Sirvi pediatricians are not well trained with the other aspects of the baby. So take everything with a pinch of salt. So, for example, with the baby's weight gain on the lower percentile, which is a lot of Indian babies, you will be forced to feed the baby formula. And it takes a lot of work with the parent to show them that probably they don't need to do it. If they listen to the cues of the baby, like you said, if they work according to the baby, they might still be able to see the weight gain with feeding, but it might take a different course, and it takes time to build that trust in the parent as well. So, yeah, the pediatricians may not be the best person, it's time that we reach out to the right people, and also somebody you are. And with respect to Darshan, Darshan took the classes, he has been very uh you know passionate about breastfeeding and with the webinar that we did together, he was very passionate. He did all the designing, he did all the you know work with us, and um, it was wonderful to see that. And uh so what do you think, Surubi, in the community when other men see that from their friends, what do you think it does create a ripple effect?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Uh it does. Two things. One, yes, people get inspired and they want to be as involved as he is, but it also has the other side which was very shocked to see. Which when people asked, What work do you have with the baby? Like when he said when he did not step out with friends to go out somewhere and he said, No, I have to be at home to take care of P who said, like, it's so easy to raise a child. Like, what work do you have? And he he would be so furious, he would be so furious, and it's like, are these people really parenting or like being around the child? Like, why are men like this? And he was very confused, and uh to some extent, uh, I would say it is half and half. Half the population doesn't support men being so involved as a parent because it's not too common yet, but the other half of it is like get very inspired, they want to try, they want to help, they want to be involved, and it's fascinating. It's fascinating to see that, and it's fascinating to see men step up, uh literally sideline the parental thoughts and do what they need to do for their wives and their babies. Uh, we we saw both sides of it, so it's it's interesting, it's very interesting how the community is still like a little mixed.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

Yeah, men need their own communities where they sit together with different people. The way we as women have uh evolved, it's not that all of us were we were always intuitive, we were always nurturing, we were always caring. There was an aspect of uh insecurity in all of us that has been there throughout generations with everybody. So to be able to come out of that with education, with empowerment, with going out, all of those things, we've evolved, we've learned so much, and we all do when we have those community, when we have the right people around, and with men as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

I know. Unfortunately, that's what he keeps telling. Like, whenever I have a problem, I have I talk to so many women. Like, I have a lot of friends who are in similar stages of uh life, and I'm like, I don't think you will understand what I'm going to say, so I'm going to talk to someone else, and you know, that's the conversation I've had with Drashan, and he's like, I miss this, like, I don't have this with anyone, and he feels so sad because I know I cannot completely understand what he's going through either. As a father, the feelings that he goes through because I mean, fortunately or unfortunately, he prioritized me a lot, and I did not have the mind space to take care of him or hold space for him for a longer period of time. So there was nobody to hold space for him. He couldn't go out and talk to his guy friends about all of this, you know. And he's like, I hate this. I don't like the people you guys are like a team, you guys. Especially, I think when we both talk, he gets so irritated. It's like, I can't talk to anyone about all of this. There is no emotional support that he gets, which is very, very sad for a man. And I don't know why. Uh, I mean, he's a very emotional person, so at least I I feel like he should have found someone, but like so unfortunate. It's so unfortunate that they don't have a community like that.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

Yeah, and men, uh, not all men are emotional, they're not raised like that. So if he is emotional, that's that's a fantastic thing, which is why the three of us in our group that we created, that's still going on after a year of you guys having so um that's that's ongoing because there is communication. He communicates, he shares there, and now I understand even better why he he he's always like, You too, why are you talking outside of this group? It should be right here. Uh so now I have a better uh sort of a background to that. So, yes, men do need community, they do need to be held because they are also new fathers, they don't know anything, they can go through anxiety, they can go through. In fact, there's an episode on the podcast itself there was um from Postpartum Support International, that's an international organization. If you are a father listening to this, a new parent and going through phases of anxiety or something, this international organization offers you um protocols, which are free of cost, to hear you. And one of the coordinators, Joshua, was there on the episode and he shared his journey. He was absolutely taken aback. He didn't know how to support his wife, and his wife was going through anxiety herself, and he didn't have anybody to share this with, and it was it was it began before uh the penal began itself. It began in pregnancy where he was not sure of his duties, whether he'll be able to do it, whether he'll be a good father. Sometimes you have all these inbuilt um things with you because you've seen certain things with your childhood or someone else, you have those life experiences. Somebody needs to bring yourself back, you know, help you navigate this better. And isolation, especially from the COVID times. And I can't even imagine COVID parenting. Yeah, if you have any residue as well from there, or your friends, you know, somebody talks about that period and feels absolutely alone in that period, and so definitely, definitely seek support. It's still not late. You are going to live in your like the postpartum and the breastfeeding and the parenthood phase is going to live in your body forever with Vivimatures. So it's very, very important that this important phase gets the light and the support years later, if if you need to. And uh Survi with breastfeeding, you've um so we've talked about the initial issues that happen. So education is hands down very important. We also spoke about one-to-one support throughout. Uh, if you can have someone who can hold your hand. Anything else that you see around breastfeeding that you'd like to highlight for our moms to know um and prepare for in the beginning, or know how to navigate that in postpartum when it comes to breastfeeding and also baby wearing. We we didn't speak about that, so you did a lot of baby wearing as well. So, about that as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

So, with the breastfeeding, I think uh the support is one aspect of it, but the other aspects are your personal nutrition, your hydration, you know, and the posture that you take to breastfeed is like equally important, whether it is C-section, vaginal birth, it's not going to matter. Uh, the posture is still important, and that posture is important for a very, very long period of time because it's not just the initial phase where the body is recovering, it takes longer, it takes about like a year, year and a half, two years for the body to completely feel this is very wrong to say that completely feel better or different, but yeah, to get to some stability for that matter. So uh posture becomes like very important, and uh you need to understand that before you get into it. And uh baby bearing is really really really useful because it's hard to carry the baby on in your arms, and uh, unfortunately, we've all we also live in isolations now where smaller families, just the parents and the kid, and it's very hard to do everything that you need to do to get through the day and also take care of a newborn. So in India, it is still okay. At least we have some parental support, like the grandparents come over, or you go to your parents' place, and there's some support. I've seen uh people doing this all by themselves uh with no support, especially when they are outside of the country. So baby wearing is like extremely useful. The connection between baby wearing and breastfeeding is also equally amazing. Uh, there were times when a couple of my students have told me that they've noticed the quantity of the breast milk has reduced and uh you know they don't know what to do. They did all the things, like you know, all the delays that or all the nutritional aspects were taken care of, hydration was taken care of. But the last thing that worked for them, I just told her, wait for a day tonight when you're sleeping, just put your baby on your chest, bare chest, hold your baby and just sleep it off. Let's see if it is if you still feel that the you know if you you're producing less milk tomorrow, then we'll look into it, karky. And just that helped. Everything was sorted, right? And the baby wearing and the skin contact that we talk about and everything, we think it is only for the first few weeks of the birth. It's not, it's for a longer period of time. I think as long as the baby needs it, you should be able to give it. Uh, there are a lot of people who will come and tell you, Key, don't carry your baby around a lot. You know, you're holding her in the back for too long, you're carrying her around a lot, trying to put her to sleep by rocking, walking, singing, it's not sustainable. You know, eventually, over a period of time, they'll get used to all of this, and you'll have to do this for a long period of time and everything. All of that is nonsense. It is not true at all. And this you kept reiterating to us a lot. And I still remember uh the analogy that you had given, right? Like the the kid with a doll, where it is her doll and she keeps it with her. And if someone threatens to take that away from her, how agitated and disoriented a baby feels, and they try to cling on to it and make sure that they hide it and they don't uh give it to anyone. But if you tell that that doll is safe, and you tell that I'll take it for some time and I'll give it back to you, and you actually follow through, they feel more safe and uh you know secure about it. I think breastfeeding, holding, wearing, everything falls into place at that in that. So please hold your babies for as long as you can because once they start crossing. They will not come to you. It's a misconception that you hold the baby for a longer period of time in their early stages, and they will expect that. You would want to do it now, and they will not come to you when they're older. And that's true. That is so true. And we miss that baby phase now because she doesn't want to be held now. She all she wants to do is crawl, explore everything, and no, she doesn't want to be held. And the only holding, holding that I get now at one year mark is when I'm feeding her. Otherwise, she wants to just run away from everyone. So, and they're lightweight initially, it's easier to hold them. And when they get heavier, it's harder to hold them longer. So, please, these advices that that don't align with you as a person, please don't listen to them. If you don't want to hold your child, if you are getting tired, you want someone else to do that job for you, it is absolutely fine. But if it is not innately your choice to do something, please don't do that because it is very, very important to not just listen to your baby's cues with everything else, but also listen to how your body feels when you do things against your own will because it puts a lot of stress on your body, and that can affect a lot of things, including breastfeeding for that matter. And I think people forget this. You forget to listen to your baby because you have listened to so many videos, uh, gone through so many reels that you have a set things in mind, you have set things in mind. This is how it is supposed to look like, you know. Three months may babies sleep for 12 hours, 14 hours, 16 hours, then they take two naps in a day, then they sleep through the night. If they don't sleep in the morning, they sleep well through the night. And or some people also say that if they sleep well in the day, they will sleep well in the night, also. But that's absolutely not true. Your baby is absolutely very, very, very different from all these uh statistics and like numbers and structures, they're not like that at all. So while you listen to your baby's cues, also listen to yourself because it is important what your body feels, because your body will feel it. If somebody takes your baby away from you, you know what it feels like. But there will be days when you would want someone else to hold the baby and it gives you that relaxation and a break, and that is also equally important. So that it's very, very important to do that. So I think if we are able to do that, if you are able to get in tune with yourself, it's easier to get in tune with your baby, and that works for you, and do what works for you. It doesn't have to be, and I absolutely don't think there is any right way of parenting at all. What works for you works for you because I was talking to a student of mine recently, and uh she was telling me that parenting is the biggest flex right now, and you know, if you do these, these, these, these, these things, you're an amazing parent, but you don't, then you know, you you're you are you're in question. So, and it's very unfortunate that parenting has come to that. It's it's a it's a skill, yes. It it's a skill that you develop for your child, and it is very personalized for that child, not even for the second or the third or the fourth one that you have, it's specifically for that particular child. Some babies sleep, some babies don't sleep much, they don't need that much sleep, they're just the way they are. And some babies are comfortable with EC, some babies are not, because it just doesn't work for them at that point of time. Keep trying. If it doesn't work, it's okay to take a step back. There are a zillion other ways to take care of your child, so it doesn't have to be in a format that we think cognitively is the right way of doing things, and I think that's the biggest lesson that I have learned in the last one whole year.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

Listeners have that as a thumb rule. Be intuitive in your journey. People grow out of love and marriages, your baby will grow out of being held by you. They are going to grow into a whole human being, and they are not going to do the same thing as you think they will. So don't hold the baby. One off person comes for one minute and gives you that advice. One, they're not even eligible to do that. Two, please don't take that pressure and ask your husband to actually get the guests sidelined. You know, whenever something like this comes up, they can actually proactively, if they're around, you know, take that space. My mother-in-law actually did that for many of the guests when she saw me uncomfortable, or she'd not even asked me to come out, she'd be like, You stay inside, I'll just show them the baby and bring the baby inside. And that was, I think now I think when I think about that, I think that was wonderful. I mean, I would have been given tons of it. People are looking at your breasts, people are looking at if they're leaking, people are doing all sorts of things which you as a new age woman would be like, Oh, does that even happen? I mean, that's so that's so awful to do. I mean, to look at someone's body, how does somebody even do that?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Sorry to cut you off, but we did one better. Luckily, we were lucky enough to get that support uh with a lot of resistance, but this was six weeks, literally no contact from anyone outside of the family. It was just the grandparents and like the first circle, like my sibling and his sister, that's it. No one else came home, no one else visited us, and we went out. We went met a friend, we did it that way because when I wanted a break, uh we initiated going out because having someone home in your space when you're in that early stages of postpartum is very uncomfortable. At least I was very uncomfortable, and I'm not a very people person when I'm trying doing something very intense. So I did not want anyone home, so I could just be at home, you know, not wearing a bra, leaking my breasts out, wearing something that I'm comfortable with because it was speaking summer. I didn't want to be clothed properly at that point of time, and having someone over Matlab, you need to take a bath, you need to dress up properly, at least presentable. I wasn't in the zone for that at all. And we did get a lot of uh you know conversation about that from the parents, but I said this is our child, and I am the one, we are the ones doing the most of the work, we are the ones bearing it, and we are not sleeping well, we have a lot of things to do during the day, and uh adding one more thing to it, entertaining people is not on my priority. I don't care because it is not going to matter whether your relative sees the baby at day one, day twenty, or six months. It is not going to change their life in any way, and it's absolutely okay to put your foot down if that is what makes your life easy. But if you're comfortable having people around, please do. There's no wrong, nothing wrong with it either. So I think we do this, we do this. There's extremes for everything. You have 200 people walking into the hospital to see your baby, or you're not doing it at all.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

So, yeah, no, uh, that's a very, very good point because um that's something that we did culturally, uh ritualistically. Sutak is has been a part of our Ayurvedic way of taking care of the mother. The mother and the baby actually don't come out of the room, which is actually which is something you wouldn't want her to do. But if you uh if you understand why that isolation was there, it is for the mother to just soak into postpartum and heal it, do the initial healing with the baby. Nobody touching the baby, and there so if you come if because I'm a new mom, I have a lot of um fresh things to add, um, which I'll add to my uh breastfeeding course as well. So um, so yeah, there is a fascination with waking the baby up, there's a fascination with uh wanting to uh you know do a lot of things with a newborn. The baby is not even going to play with you for five days. That thinking that you know the baby will talk to you in the first 40 days. The baby is doesn't need anyone. That's the thing, the baby doesn't need anyone other than the mother and the father. And it is important to put your food down if you like it, like you said, it should be self-driven. To not have guests if you don't like it. I didn't I didn't want guests. My mother came a week after. I didn't want anybody in the beginning. Of course, there was a lot of we got a lot of flack, there was there were a lot of communication. We did that, that was how it happened. My mom husband had to reiterate, we had to re like we reinforced things on a baby just to you know create that sort of space, reinforcing our choices again and again. There was so much pushback that happened. We reinforced it again and again. In fact, held a little party. It wasn't little, but the party happened so that okay, you everybody wants to meet the baby so much, okay. After a month and a half, please come in and you know, meet. So um but yeah, you do what you do to um, you know, there's no right and wrong. You do what you do to ensure your baby's safety, your safety, your healing, whatever works best for you as a family, you do that.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

I mean, we shouldn't be fighting for this. That's the unfortunate part. Like, you need to fight it at every point of time. You're already doing so much, but you need to fight for the choices that you want to make, which is very unfortunate. I think that happens with the birth, also. We spoke about that, right? Like, wanting to give unmedicated birth is not a fight that you need to have, it's not necessary. The same goes with all of these things as well, right? Like, you don't have to fight and say that I don't want to have anyone around me. I was, I don't know, uh, I used to get very stimulated since pregnancy. I've been like that. I cannot, I couldn't stay in crowded places for too long, I couldn't listen to loud music, and it all triggered in pregnancy for me, and it continued, it still is continuing for me. I still cannot be in a crowded place for too long. I think and she picks up on my energy and she gets fussy. So people think that she's a fussy child, but they don't see the fussy mother who's trying to put up a show in front of people because I know the society, I understand how to be a part of the society. And I think if if this is this is something that I tell everyone, if if you want to go see someone's child, if that child is not your sibling's child, please ask yourself if you want to, if it is needed, that and if the mother is actually okay with it, genuinely ask, are you sure you're okay with me coming? If not, please tell me I can meet the baby some other time. That's it. And it takes uh it's it's so helpful for a mother, and it is so helpful for the mother, and when people go meet mothers, please take something for the mother. Don't have to take anything for the baby, baby already has enough, way more than needed. So please do something for the mother because this is something that I tell all my students because uh I do teach general practitioners, right, who don't have children or who don't plan to have children anytime soon, and they see all these mothers, like they see pregnant women, they see postpartum mothers and everything. And uh my students ask, like, I'm going to see a friend of mine, she's like six, eight weeks postpartum. What do you think I should bring her? I said, please ask her how does she want the support from you? Don't go there to just sit, ask her what she if she wants the food to be cooked, do that. If she wants you to hold the baby so that she can go take like a nice half an hour, one hour long shower, do that. So do that. Ask whoever you're meeting, ask them what kind of support do they need. Don't go there, put your feet up and ask somebody to bring chai, coffee, and like you know, sit there and say that is not what a mother wants at that point of time. So I think it's very, very important for us to understand how to support a mother. You you don't have to be the father, you don't have to be in the first circle or anything. You can be just the friend who is watching your friend go through postpartum. You might not know what to do. You don't have to know it either. You can just ask. Please be open about it. Ask what she wants and do it accordingly. If you can, please do it. If you don't, it's fine. He's not going to worry about it. Don't do crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

Yeah, and this is so basic when we visit someone, we call them, ask them, is it okay for us to combine not postpartum?

SPEAKER_00 57:28

And it's their right to see the baby. I don't know how it turned out to be someone's right to see a newborn. It's not. Nobody's life has changed. Outside of the house, nobody's life has changed at all. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

And I was saying that even if you're a sibling, you can ask for permission. Maybe. So my parents, I told them like a week later, I don't even want to see you. Like my mom, I told her, of course she didn't like it. She was like, okay. Um but they respect it. That that's the thing that I had uh that they respected it. So they were like, okay, a week later, whenever you want us, we'll come, we'll come here. Um, but we'll we'll be around, but we'll only come when you ask us. So when you think of the mother, she will remember it for like that because she you prioritized her at that vulnerable stage of time. And what all you did at that point in time that negated her feelings, her request, her little request. She knows her position in the family from there on. Giving her a social perspective of who she is, you are doing a lot more damage to your relationship than you think you are. And you think people don't realize, you know, people, you know, you're not going to um be able to now, you know, uh sort of um, you know, teach the mother how she should be as a human being. Gone are the days. You cannot be telling a human being what to feel, how to feel as a woman, as a bahoon, and and I'm categorically speaking about a woman living in someone else's house. So um, and that's how and in fact that that is something absolutely out of the question. But I was sitting down with my father, I said, Who started this papa? That a woman needs to leave her house and go to someone else's house and live with their parents. Like, who started? He said, You're right. I don't know, maybe I'll have to figure this out. It's been there for years. And I was so happy, he said, that I will figure this out, I'll look into it. And that in itself was like, okay, figure this out. So someone else hasn't, you know, train their daughters and this is how it should be. I mean, so yeah, I mean, ask for permission whether you'd be seeing you will be shown the baby.

unknown 59:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 59:33

Baby is going nowhere. And you'll be able to enjoy the baby at two months, two and a half months, three months when they start making eye contact, talking to you, answering back, you are going to eat. And the mother would actually then want you to hold the baby because the baby doesn't sleep with just feeding. She would want you to take the baby and walk the baby around and make the baby sleep. I need so many people now at uh three and a half months than I did when it was 40 days. I needed nobody I could really do it. And the other thing, my husband and I, we when we spoke about you know all the arguments that came, you know, the mother only has to sit in the room. You know, there's nothing that she has to do. Everybody that is taking care of the mother is now attending to the guests. You forget that. You're still taking a big piece of her health away from her. So even if she needs water, she has to call. And you don't realize how much that of an that is an effort at that point in time. She is she is doing physical work. Even if she's lying down, she's feeding the baby, she's burning calories. I lost weight after giving birth. Everybody was so shocked. They were like, Oh, you you look so thin. What did you do? I said, like, no, I did exercise before, so I had already gone one inch, like one size down. You didn't see me before, but I still had lost. I could see, I saw myself in the mirror. I was like, I'm losing weight with breastfeeding. It's now that I'm eating so much that I'm gaining back, and it's not postpartum, it's me eating um to my house fold and more than I need. So, yes, please. Um, you are taking away a big chunk from the mother, so ask the family, the immediate family. The parents should be able to decide what it is, it's not even the uh the grandparents or on either side of the family to decide oh what should happen to start. And thank you for bringing that up, Suddhi, and adding so much nuance to it in your explanation. Yeah, uh, I've I've loved our conversation and um this was beautiful. And I think we've covered to me, I've covered like we've covered everything. Um, if you want to add anything else, please feel free to before we laugh.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

I think the bottom line is the intuition part, just be more intuitive with everything that goes around you. Starting from the conception, not just in the post bottom. Uh, because I know women are questioned at every stage, especially in this part of life. So and know that you're not answerable to anyone, and just because you put your foot down to do things your way doesn't make you a bad person. It's just the choices that you make for your child, for your own self and your own sanity, and it is absolutely okay, and nobody needs to be convinced with it, and nobody needs to align with it except for your partner who is going to support you. Nobody else even needs to know the reason behind the things that you do either, and you don't have to explain. Unfortunately, we are explaining ourselves a lot for the choices that we make, but I hope eventually that stops and we just listen to the mothers and agree with what she says and don't question it, don't ask her for an explanation. I hope we reach there sooner than later. But if you have to explain to the loved one that you want to give an explanation, please do, otherwise, you don't have to explain yourself to the entire world. It's nonsense, it's energy draining, and that's not something that you want to do. So, and please enjoy all the phases, they grow out of everything so so quickly, and uh you will miss it all. So, hold them for as long as they are love you too, and then enjoy every phase of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

That's all yeah, yeah, wonderful. So, people around women, please let them take some space, don't make them shrink, let them take their due space. This is the time that they should be the queens that they are. So, on that note, thank you so much, Sir Bi. I enjoyed myself. Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Thank you so much, Vivia.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

There is a field beyond fear where the body is empowered to take on labor and birth. To land there, it is crucial to take birth education. To enroll into our unique labor and birth preparation course, reach out to us at www.birthagni.com or scroll through all available prenatal and postnatal preparation classes. Thank you for listening. All in the spirit of birth, womanhood, and freedom. Remember, you got the part.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

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